[ausev] 40 hp bus +

Sun Dec 21 03:46:51 GMT 2008

Guys I will say this.  Great minds think alike.  Yes it would be nice to give high schools money so the shop teacher can benefit.  But producing 1 car in 3 months is not good for anyone.  The kid in the story had a great idea.  But the weight of the batteries flexed the body and he cannot close the gull wing doors on the Brinklin he converted.  Nevertheless a great story.  Anyway, what do you think the teachers will say, teach the kids to fix gas engines (which there are a lot more of) or build an electric car of which there are few?  What would be good, is our support of the electric cars that are available now not 3 years from now.  California has invested millions to assist Tesla to produce the car in the Bay Area, Think is looking to produce their car in the Midwest and Phoenix Motor Cars was in talks with one of the Big 3 to distribute their units nationwide.  Nissan/Renault is introducing their cars sooner than expected.  Next year
 there are 2 imports one commercial and one retail, electric highway speed units.  The time is now.  We must be ready.  

You say "Lack of infrastructure in the present is a perception problem. Pretty much everyone has all the infrastructure they need to drive a modern electric car to and from work."  This thinking goes to a lack of accountability.  This is saying everybody is on their own.  If you get permission to plug in at work who is responsible if the plugs are turned off and your car does not charge?  Or someone unplugs your car in order to charge their car?Who protects the consumer when your parking street level and you need to charge?  Do you run a cord in a door?  Whose door?  Do you have an agreement with them?  Do you have reserved parking in front of that door waiting for you?  If you don't show up that day who gets to use your space?  Do you want electrical cords laying across the sidewalk?  If someone gets hurt by that cord laying there, who is responsible you or the owner of that door?  

Infrastructure is more than a place to plug in.  It is the rules and consequences if you do something wrong.  It protects both sides of the plug.  It gives us the boundaries to excel  and resolve conflicts.  In a society like ours kaos comes when no one takes responsibility for their actions.  Infrastructure, a perception problem?  Our governmental bodies are in place for a reason.    

The 220V in your garage is for your dryer not your car, at home you use 110V.  Who provides the 115V/240V/440V in the city or on the highway for your car?  Without infrastructure in place each one of us would have to go and ask permission to plug our car in.  Then it will turn to pecking order type setting.  Who gets there first, who has more money, who knows the right people, the good old boy/gal network.  Infrastructure, a perception problem?  Infrastructure levels the field.

I leave you with what, I saw in a movie.  "  There was this french revolutionary watching his countrymen run by so he says to his brother "I must go and see where they are going so I can lead them."  This rings true in our lives now.  Let's see what they do then we join in.  If infrastructure in the present is a perception problem, whose perception is it?  And how do we change it?  The real problem is that there is none.  In order to lead in the EV movement, we (Austin), must be out in front of the pack, not on the side watching them go by.    

Infrastructure is more than just a plug.

Leo

--- On Fri, 12/19/08, mark witt <aztexan45 at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: mark N&gt;witt <aztexan45 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ausev] 40 hp bus +
To: "Austin EV Group Post" <ausev at austinev.org>
Date: Friday, December 19, 2008, 10:30 PM

#yiv1649733779 .hmmessage P
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Wouldn't it be nice if just a wee bit of this bailout money (which as we all know is just more borrowed cheese) would go to the E.A.A...say just a few million for education and various chapter programs. I have a feeling that it would be put to some good use. We have no pension plan or insurance as far as I know. Can you imagine if 300 or more high schools were given 20G or so to bring an EV to fruition. The ultimate startup company! Putting thoughts into kids heads...
  Check out this 17 year old who did this car http://gas2.org/2008/10/14/texas-teen-builds-his-own-electric-car-on-10000-budget/

good to see stuff like this....Mark W.

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:55:24 -0600
From: ian.ward at gmail.com
To: electricaveaustin at yahoo.com; ausev at austinev.org
Subject: Re: [ausev] 40 hp bus +

Lack of infrastructure in the present is a perception problem. Pretty much everyone has all the infrastructure they need to drive a modern electric car to and from work. A 220V outlet in your garage can charge you up just fine for commuting. I also got our property management to allow me to charge at work, but I only need that because I have 5-year old lead acid batteries. I expect to hear a lot more stories like this in two years when the Volt reaches show rooms (along with EVs from Nissan, Chrysler (if they're still around), Mitsubishi and followed closely by Ford and Toyota). It will take those thousands of drivers to create demand for charging infrastructure. Even the early adopters of the second gen commercial vehicles will have to start with the same playing field we have now. After that - at best, concurrently - we'll see municipalities and commercial interests jump in to provide street and parking charging infrastructure. Places
 like Hawaii, California, Portland, and Austin will lead the charge, but in other places, infrastructure will follow demand, not lead it. Eventually, we'll need more electric generation capacity, but I think that is another solution for the economy, not a problem.

Despite my ties to industry, I'd like to see our bailout money go to the orderly bankruptcy and liquidation of Chrysler and GM. Loans (actually POs for real deliveries) should go to real domestic innovators like Tesla, Commuter Cars, AC Propulsion, Aptera, Enova, Azure Dynamics (actually Canadian), UQM, Raser, A123, AltairNano, and Valence to buy the assets and hire the people to rebuild the industry. Chrysler, GM and Ford all have EV programs in full swing right now, but they are burdened by enormous bureaucracies and inefficiencies that they have been unable to shed. Ford made many tough decisions 2 years ago that the others couldn't make, so they may be the only one to survive. Ford hasn't been as public nor aggressive about it as GM's greenwashing program with the Volt (they haven't been as desperate either), but it has the strongest domestic hybrid program and will have one or more EVs on the lots in 2011.

I hope saying all that doesn't come back to bite me, but that's how I feel.

- ian

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Lionel Hinojosa <electricaveaustin at yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello people!! I am new to AEAA but I have been following the thread and there seems to be some unresolved anger issues.  lol  

Listen, there is one word that will help us as a people turn the corner in accepting the electric car. INFRASTRUCTURE!!!  Without it we are tethered to our 110 plugs.  One of you said that they would not pay 60k or half that for a electric car.  Not everyone can do what you do to have a car like that.  I'm not!  Nowhere near that smart to build my own.  Another was discussing the volts or was it watts per feet in a cord to do something.  I think it is fantastic that there are people like you around to think of these thing in order to bring about a better place to live, that is the reason you do it, is it not?  Not to car bash the big three, or throw a bumper sticker on your car and wave it as an insult.  

On the consumer, he or she is not interested in realizing any benefit from an EV.  They know it costs only 30 to 50 cents a day to go 50 to 60 miles but they all ask the same thing.  How fast does it go and where can I charge it.  I know that I know that I know that, if we had highway speed electric cars (affordable to the masses) and a charging infrastructure in place they will be all over the cars.  Even with the NEVs and LSVs.  Our society is a matter of convenience.  We do not want to be limited go where we want when we want as fast as we want.  When we have the infrastructure in place then things will change for  the consumer.  

Many people say that they should not give the big three the money to bail them out.  Without them where would we be.  Their failure will not only be the end of the American Auto Industry but also of the Electric Car Industry as well.  No one will trust any manufacturer again.  They might not be doing it right at the moment but we need then NOT to fail.  What will the new slogan be "Baseball, Apple Pie and Toyota????  instead of Chevrolet.  Please build a better mouse trap THEN share with the world because they will beat a path to your door.  Thank you for what you do.

I look forward to your comments.  

Leo
--- On Fri, 12/19/08, Ian Ward <ian.ward at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ian Ward <ian.ward at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ausev] 40 hp bus
To: "AustinEV News Announcements and General Discussion" <ausev at austinev.org>
Date: Friday, December 19, 2008, 3:23 PM

It would be kind of awkward for me to do that since Ford built my EV...and I work for them, indirectly. 

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Jim Watson <osious at gmail.com> wrote:

When I do get an EV on the road I will put a big sign on the back of it that says if the big 3 and big oil will kill electric cars, then people will build there own!! Like this one!!!! We will stop buying gas and we will see who gets scrapped!! hahaha

Jim

P.S. maybe I will get a shity,.. I mean chevy hummer,.. convert it and then put the sign on that and drive it right up to the big three's door step!! 

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Ian Ward <ian.ward at gmail.com> wrote:

I was assuming you were comparing the innovation required for vehicles of yesteryear versus those of today. It's a not a fair comparison for millions of reasons. 

I agree with most of what you are saying, but until the industry rallies around EV technology, the economies of scale make EVs impractical and they'll remain in the garages of enthusiasts. The world society is consumer-driven and until consumers can financially realize (as in benefit from) the improved efficiency of EVs, the majority will not be consumers of EVs. It's finally happening now, but the mistake was make 8 years ago when the domestics killed their EV programs. The price of oil dropping won't help keep in the front of consumer minds, but I think we have an incoming executive and congress that will not loose sight of the future consequences of letting that happen again. Because of the poor decisions made by Detroit, Washington will have the power to make it happen - if we hold them to it.

I'm glad you're excited about EVs and I hope you do get one on the road.

- ian 

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Jim Watson <osious at gmail.com> wrote:

I wasn't comparing the bus to the steam car, I was just asking where innovation has gone in this country. 100 years ago we were making cars like that Dobel. Here is a site that talks about three cars that were made before the depression that were all alternate fuel vehicles. One was fully electric! (Baker Electric) Why didn't they make it?? Car companies say we don't have the technology to make anything other than gas using vehicles. Jay Leno is the proud owner of all three alternate fuel vehicles that were made before the depression. They are all very cool,.. You should also look at the Jay Leno video clip about the Dobel. It is very inspiring! He says that his Dobel is more sophisticated than any car in his garage. Talk about innovation!!!! He has lots of million dollar sport cars! The funny thing is, the gas cars are the MOST inefficient of all vehicles!!! I have heard that only 20-30% of the gas that you put in your car actualy propels the car
 forward. This non-gas using vehicle stuff is so interesting. I am looking forward to making my own electric car.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/4215940.html?nav=RSS20 

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Ian Ward <ian.ward at gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah...who needs a seat belts, anti-lock brakes or a roof! And how many of those did they sell for $20,000 in 1924? That would be like a quarter million dollar car, today. 

Not that I'm defending the big 2.5, but come on! apples to ... cumquat?

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Jim Watson <osious at gmail.com> wrote:

I heard about a new bus their making in India. It runs off of a 40 hp gas motor,.... This motor then turns an extremely heavey flywheel up to around 40,000 rpms. They found a way, using composites, to keep the fly wheel from exploding. The bus driver says the bus handles like a Porch. The bus has no brakes,.. hahaha braking actualy restores mechanical power to the flywheel to slow the bus down. cool stuff. 

Has anyone heard about the 1924 Dobel steam car. It weighs 6000 lbs. It has about 1000 ft lbs of torque. It will start up in less than 30 seconds from (cold to moving). top speed 90 mph. It uses 24 gallons of water and a quart of oil every 100 miles or so. At 70 mph the engine is turning 900 rpms!!!! Why can't american car companies be this inovative???? Don't answer that,....

Jim

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