[ausev] LI Batteries

Sat Oct 30 00:11:51 GMT 2010

Here's my notes from the talk.
It was an excellent presentation.
Thanks to Joel.

-bill
===============
Li Ion and Electric Vehicles
Joel Sandahl of ZXTech
Talk 10/27/2010

Batteries are a complex multivariate problem

Example comparison:
Gas: 12 gallons @ 33mpg = 432 KWh
     72.9 lbs  1.62 Cu ft

Li EV: 0.5KWh/mile = 200KWh for same distance
       5000 lbs   80 Cu ft
      $150K

==> Pure EV are not cost effective due to driving range requirement and the
limited number of full discharge cycles

But HEV & PHEV can be cost effective because you can size for the commuter
distance but still go the full range with gas engine. Hybrids have a much
smaller depth of discharge and therefore a much longer battery life.

Tesla uses 18650 cans - next generation batteries will blow this away. All
of the Tesla packaging is around the 18650, so it will be obsolete.

Showed a battery that looked like a thick DVD that he said was the newest
innovation in packaging. The name was something like Inventec but I cannot
find it on the net.

LCO (Li Cobalt Oxide) is an unstable bomb. Toyota worked for years to make
it stable and gave up on it earlier this year. They gave up because they
could not handle the crush test even though they had addressed all other
problems. Also LCO can go off without any ignition issue. All manufacturers
have dropped LCO.

LMO (LiMn2O ) is being used by Volt and Leaf for the next ~2 years, but will
be replaced. LMO (used in laptops) is only good for 250~500 full discharge /
recharge cycles, so it is useless in the long run for a pure EV (Leaf) or
for a PHEV that is used primarily as a pure EV. The spinel effect limits the
number of cyles. Joel believes that GM and Nissan accountants are booking
reserves to write off many batteries within the next two years.

LFP (Li Iron Phosphate) - All auto batteries will be LFP in two years. BYD
and A123 are already pursuing LFP now, current EV & HEV manufacturers are
using LMO now. LFP cost ~$750/KWh. The LFP is only 23% of the total battery
cost since there are many components and steps in the manufacturing.

It takes at least a year to get a new improved battery technology to market
die to all the testing electrical, safety, mechanical, and lieftime. It
takes 3~4 years to get a new battery technology into an mainstream EV due to
the safety concerns and engineering issues.

Keys to the future:
 - Expect it to take 5-10 for EV to become more mainstream
 - HEV economics are marginally supportable today (unlike pure EVs)
 - Pure EVs wont work due to costs and the limited number of cycles of full
discharge/recharge

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 3:28 PM, R. D. Childers <rdchilders at austin.rr.com>wrote:

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> other groups, the Consultants Network meets on the fourth Wednesday of each
> month starting at 6:00 p.m. at the China Star<http://www.chinastaraustin.com/>
>  restaurant, which requires a $5.00 minimum charge per person (that may be
> applied toward purchases) and is located in Austin at 6134 Highway 290
> East<http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=6134+Highway+290+East+Austin+TX&ie=UTF8&ll=30.325305,-97.703755&spn=0.007149,0.018926&z=16&iwloc=A>,
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> Next Meeting  Topic: Li-ion Batteries and Electric Vehicles Abstract: Electric
> vehicles (EV) are beginning to come to the market in record numbers of model
> types as well as units. Will they be successful? A key factor in EV design
> is the energy source. Most of the newer EV designs are based on Li-ion
> batteries. Mr. Sandahl will provide his perspective on Li-ion batteries and
> electric vehicles in terms of technology, design considerations and
> evolution of the industry. Speaker: Joel Sandahl Speaker's Bio's: Joel
> Sandahl is the CEO of ZX Technologies (ZXTECH), a technology consulting
> firm. He has been providing business and technical leadership to companies
> for more than 35 years. Mr. Sandahl has founded five technology companies,
> selling two of them to Fortune 100 companies. He has served in senior
> management for a number of Fortune 500 companies. For the past five years,
> he has been leading business and technology developments in the Li-ion
> battery industry. His clients include some of the largest Li-ion battery
> producers. Date & Time: Wednesday, October 27, 2010 : networking at 6:00
> p.m., business and program from 7:00 to 8:30 p.m.
> (Please note the meeting day for 2010: 4th Wednesday of the month.)
> Location: China Star Restaurant, 6134 Hwy 290 E, Austin TX Directions: Westbound
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>  or Kai Wong <http://ewh.ieee.org/r5/central_texas/cn/#>.
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